Rep. Dan Burton, R-Indianapolis, forced Roger Clemens' chief accuser, Brian McNamee, to retract earlier statements during testimony Wednesday. Here is a transcript of their exchange:
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BURTON: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The tapes of the Toronto Blue Jays-Florida Marlin game has several comments on it about Mr. Clemens not being at that Canseco party.
And Mr. Canseco provided a sworn affidavit stating that Clemens did not attend that party.
And you indicated that he came to the party late. How do you square that with what was on television, on the radio and what the sworn affidavit of Canseco's was on that? I mean, there's some inconsistency there.
MCNAMEE: My recollection is not inconsistent. What they said, they said. I recall Roger Clemens being at that party.
BURTON: Why did you keep those gauze pads?
MCNAMEE: I'm sorry?
BURTON: Why did you keep the needles and the gauze pads?
MCNAMEE: Like I had mentioned in my opening statement...
BURTON: I want to read to you what you said in the sworn testimony, OK? And this was 2000, 2001 that these pads were accumulated. Right?
MCNAMEE: 2001, 2002, sir.
BURTON: OK, 2001, 2002. And you worked for Clemens up until what? 2006?
MCNAMEE: 2007.
BURTON: 2007, so you stayed with him five years after you kept these materials. Right?
MCNAMEE: Yes, sir.
BURTON: OK. I want to read what you said: I kept them, well, because throughout my time with Roger Clemens it was there always somewhat in the back of my mind that I distrusted him to a degree. And my gut feeling and the fact that I was an excop, I just felt that, and I think there were bits and pieces coming out in the paper.
Why in the world would you work for somebody that you thought was unethical and would lie? And why would you keep this information for five years if he was your friend and you thought that he was to be distrusted?
MCNAMEE: He was my employer.
BURTON: Do you do this to all your employers? I mean, is this the kind of employee you are? You keep gauze pads and needles and everything for five years and go on and keep working for them?
MCNAMEE: Well, it wasn't something that I thought about. It was just there. And it kept coming up. It was in the basement. And as I thought about it, more things came up.
And as you saw, in 2000 I wrote an article in the New York Times regarding the more stuff that kept coming out about steroid use in baseball.
So the fact that I never felt good about what I was doing, the fact that it was illegal, I figured because I've done things before for other people and I've got hurt by it, I might as well hold on to these things. It wasn't something I dwelled on.
BURTON: How many other people did you treat that you kept their gauze pads and needles?
MCNAMEE: Possibly one other.
BURTON: And who was that?
MCNAMEE: Chuck Knoblauch.
BURTON: Do you still have them?
MCNAMEE: I believe it's in the possession of the federal government.
BURTON: Why did you not give those to the Mitchell report committee immediately when you were contacted by them?
MCNAMEE: Because I felt horrible about being in the position that I was in.
BURTON: Now, let me get -- I want to make sure I've got this straight. Your friend Roger Clemens, you allegedly gave him these shots. You kept the pads and the needles for five years and went on and kept working for him because he was your employer.
And then you say you said you felt bad -- you felt bad about proposing and giving these to the Mitchell committee when you first started talking to them?
MCNAMEE: Yes, sir.
BURTON: Gee whiz! Are you kidding me?
MCNAMEE: No, sir.
BURTON: My goodness.
And as I understand it from my colleague here, you told the New York Times that you had no direct proof at the beginning of this investigation. Right?
MCNAMEE: I'm sorry?
BURTON: You told the New York Times that you had no direct evidence like the gauze and needles at the beginning of all this.
MCNAMEE: I told the -- I didn't talk to the New York Times, I told the federal investigators and the Mitchell people that I had no direct evidence (inaudible).
BURTON: On January 5th, 2008.
What's that?
So you didn't tell the truth then initially to them?
MCNAMEE: No, sir.
BURTON: You lied.
MCNAMEE: Yes, sir.
BURTON: There are several things here that really bother me. First of all, you lied about him being at Canseco's. Canseco said he wasn't there in a sworn affidavit. On the radio and on television, they said he wasn't there. And yet you still maintain that he did come there. And now, you admit you lied about this.
Are you lying about anything else? I mean, why don't you tell us?
MCNAMEE: No, sir. And I'm not lying about Jose Canseco's house.
BURTON: So you just -- you just lie when it's convenient for you.
MCNAMEE: No, sir.
BURTON: Yes. What's that?
Can you pull the microphone a little bit closer, please?
Mr. Clemens, in your defamation lawsuit against McNamee, it says that according to McNamee, he originally made his allegations to federal authorities after being threatened with criminal prosecution if he did not implicate you. That's an allegation, of course.
And why do you consider McNamee trustworthy on this point? And how do you have this kind information that he might have been coerced into his testimony?
CLEMENS: I just -- what I have heard on different occasions about what he said and what he hasn't said.
There was a tape that I heard. The timeline would have been four or five days before the report came out. It was a taped conversation from Jim Murray. And that's basically where I heard the allegations that were being said by Brian McNamee about myself and Andy Pettitte, also, which -- again, that's the first time that I heard Andy Pettitte's name about using HGH. I said, absolutely, no way.
And, of course, now that I've learned that Andy has done it, I was shocked.
BURTON: Mr. McNamee, I'm going to read to you a series of prior statements attributed to you regarding steroid use, or the lack thereof, by Mr. Clemens or Mr. Pettitte.
I never gave Clemens or Pettitte steroids. They never asked me for steroids. The only thing they asked me for were vitamins.
That was William Sherman and T.J. Quinn (inaudible), New York Daily News, December 10, 2006. Did you say that?
MCNAMEE: Yes, I did.
BURTON: Is that a lie?
MCNAMEE: Yes, it is.
BURTON: Oh, it's another one. OK. I told federal investigators, twice, that Roger and Andy had nothing to do with it. Is that right?
MCNAMEE: Yes, sir.
BURTON: Is that a lie?
MCNAMEE: Yes, sir.
BURTON: OK. I said, Roger and Andy, you know what, you have to talk to them. I don't know anything about that. I don't know anything about that -- a transcript of an interview by Jim Yarlborough (ph) and Billy Beck (ph). Is that correct?
MCNAMEE: I'm sorry. Can you repeat that, please?
BURTON: I said, Roger and Andy, you know what, you have to talk to them. I don't know anything about that. I don't know anything about that.
That's a transcript of the interview by Jim Yarlborough (ph) and Billy Beck -- Belk (ph) and Brian McNamee -- December 12, 2007. Is that correct?
MCNAMEE: I'm not sure. What are you referring to? What am I saying I don't know anything about -- sir?
BURTON: Let me read to you -- well, let's pass on that because...
(CROSSTALK)
BURTON: Oh, this was a quote you told the investigators. We'll pass on that.
Mr. McNamee, I'm going to read you a series of statements attributed to you regarding your involvement with steroids. I don't have any dealings with steroids or amphetamines. I don't buy it, sell it, condone it, or recommend it. I don't make money from it. It's not part of my livelihood and not part of my business.
Did you say that?
MCNAMEE: Yes.
BURTON: That's a lie, right?
MCNAMEE: Partial.
BURTON: Partial?
MCNAMEE: A partial lie.
(LAUGHTER)
McNamee pleads guilty to knowing the ins and outs of steroids but says, I have no involvement as far as supplying it, getting it, selling it, telling them to use it. John Hayman, the sixth man (ph).
Clemens' trainer denies link to (inaudible).
Is that a lie?
MCNAMEE: Yes, sir.
BURTON: OK. You know, I'm not going to read any more of this. This is really disgusting.
You're here as a sworn witness. You're here to tell the truth. You're here under oath. And yet we have lie, after lie, after lie, after lie, where you've told this committee and the people of this country that Roger Clemens did things that -- I don't know what to believe.
I know one thing I don't believe, and that's you. The other thing I want to say is that -- and I want to say this about this whole investigation -- you know, Donovan, who was the secretary of labor, was accused of wrongdoing and went to trial.
And he was found innocent within about 20 minutes, and he came out and said, How do I get my reputation back?
You know, Roger Clemens, unless it's proven that he used steroids, and so far, I haven't seen anything like -- if he did, he ought to be held accountable -- but Roger Clemens is a baseball -- he's a titan in baseball.
And you, with all these lies, if they're not true, are destroying him and his reputation. Now, how does he get his reputation back if this is not true, and how can we believe you because you've lied and lied and lied?
And the thing I want to say is that we have this pension in the country of trial by media. I mean, I understand the media has a right to come to these things and to get all the information that they can, but until -- in this country, until a man is proven guilty, he's innocent.
And this kind of a hearing and this kind of a circus, as I call it, really bothers me. If he's done something wrong, he ought to be indicted, he ought to be prosecuted and he ought to be punished for it. But I don't see any evidence of that so far.
And with that, I'll stop.
The tapes of the Toronto Blue Jays-Florida Marlin game has several comments on it about Mr. Clemens not being at that Canseco party.
And Mr. Canseco provided a sworn affidavit stating that Clemens did not attend that party.
And you indicated that he came to the party late. How do you square that with what was on television, on the radio and what the sworn affidavit of Canseco's was on that? I mean, there's some inconsistency there.
MCNAMEE: My recollection is not inconsistent. What they said, they said. I recall Roger Clemens being at that party.
BURTON: Why did you keep those gauze pads?
MCNAMEE: I'm sorry?
BURTON: Why did you keep the needles and the gauze pads?
MCNAMEE: Like I had mentioned in my opening statement...
BURTON: I want to read to you what you said in the sworn testimony, OK? And this was 2000, 2001 that these pads were accumulated. Right?
MCNAMEE: 2001, 2002, sir.
BURTON: OK, 2001, 2002. And you worked for Clemens up until what? 2006?
MCNAMEE: 2007.
BURTON: 2007, so you stayed with him five years after you kept these materials. Right?
MCNAMEE: Yes, sir.
BURTON: OK. I want to read what you said: I kept them, well, because throughout my time with Roger Clemens it was there always somewhat in the back of my mind that I distrusted him to a degree. And my gut feeling and the fact that I was an excop, I just felt that, and I think there were bits and pieces coming out in the paper.
Why in the world would you work for somebody that you thought was unethical and would lie? And why would you keep this information for five years if he was your friend and you thought that he was to be distrusted?
MCNAMEE: He was my employer.
BURTON: Do you do this to all your employers? I mean, is this the kind of employee you are? You keep gauze pads and needles and everything for five years and go on and keep working for them?
MCNAMEE: Well, it wasn't something that I thought about. It was just there. And it kept coming up. It was in the basement. And as I thought about it, more things came up.
And as you saw, in 2000 I wrote an article in the New York Times regarding the more stuff that kept coming out about steroid use in baseball.
So the fact that I never felt good about what I was doing, the fact that it was illegal, I figured because I've done things before for other people and I've got hurt by it, I might as well hold on to these things. It wasn't something I dwelled on.
BURTON: How many other people did you treat that you kept their gauze pads and needles?
MCNAMEE: Possibly one other.
BURTON: And who was that?
MCNAMEE: Chuck Knoblauch.
BURTON: Do you still have them?
MCNAMEE: I believe it's in the possession of the federal government.
BURTON: Why did you not give those to the Mitchell report committee immediately when you were contacted by them?
MCNAMEE: Because I felt horrible about being in the position that I was in.
BURTON: Now, let me get -- I want to make sure I've got this straight. Your friend Roger Clemens, you allegedly gave him these shots. You kept the pads and the needles for five years and went on and kept working for him because he was your employer.
And then you say you said you felt bad -- you felt bad about proposing and giving these to the Mitchell committee when you first started talking to them?
MCNAMEE: Yes, sir.
BURTON: Gee whiz! Are you kidding me?
MCNAMEE: No, sir.
BURTON: My goodness.
And as I understand it from my colleague here, you told the New York Times that you had no direct proof at the beginning of this investigation. Right?
MCNAMEE: I'm sorry?
BURTON: You told the New York Times that you had no direct evidence like the gauze and needles at the beginning of all this.
MCNAMEE: I told the -- I didn't talk to the New York Times, I told the federal investigators and the Mitchell people that I had no direct evidence (inaudible).
BURTON: On January 5th, 2008.
What's that?
So you didn't tell the truth then initially to them?
MCNAMEE: No, sir.
BURTON: You lied.
MCNAMEE: Yes, sir.
BURTON: There are several things here that really bother me. First of all, you lied about him being at Canseco's. Canseco said he wasn't there in a sworn affidavit. On the radio and on television, they said he wasn't there. And yet you still maintain that he did come there. And now, you admit you lied about this.
Are you lying about anything else? I mean, why don't you tell us?
MCNAMEE: No, sir. And I'm not lying about Jose Canseco's house.
BURTON: So you just -- you just lie when it's convenient for you.
MCNAMEE: No, sir.
BURTON: Yes. What's that?
Can you pull the microphone a little bit closer, please?
Mr. Clemens, in your defamation lawsuit against McNamee, it says that according to McNamee, he originally made his allegations to federal authorities after being threatened with criminal prosecution if he did not implicate you. That's an allegation, of course.
And why do you consider McNamee trustworthy on this point? And how do you have this kind information that he might have been coerced into his testimony?
CLEMENS: I just -- what I have heard on different occasions about what he said and what he hasn't said.
There was a tape that I heard. The timeline would have been four or five days before the report came out. It was a taped conversation from Jim Murray. And that's basically where I heard the allegations that were being said by Brian McNamee about myself and Andy Pettitte, also, which -- again, that's the first time that I heard Andy Pettitte's name about using HGH. I said, absolutely, no way.
And, of course, now that I've learned that Andy has done it, I was shocked.
BURTON: Mr. McNamee, I'm going to read to you a series of prior statements attributed to you regarding steroid use, or the lack thereof, by Mr. Clemens or Mr. Pettitte.
I never gave Clemens or Pettitte steroids. They never asked me for steroids. The only thing they asked me for were vitamins.
That was William Sherman and T.J. Quinn (inaudible), New York Daily News, December 10, 2006. Did you say that?
MCNAMEE: Yes, I did.
BURTON: Is that a lie?
MCNAMEE: Yes, it is.
BURTON: Oh, it's another one. OK. I told federal investigators, twice, that Roger and Andy had nothing to do with it. Is that right?
MCNAMEE: Yes, sir.
BURTON: Is that a lie?
MCNAMEE: Yes, sir.
BURTON: OK. I said, Roger and Andy, you know what, you have to talk to them. I don't know anything about that. I don't know anything about that -- a transcript of an interview by Jim Yarlborough (ph) and Billy Beck (ph). Is that correct?
MCNAMEE: I'm sorry. Can you repeat that, please?
BURTON: I said, Roger and Andy, you know what, you have to talk to them. I don't know anything about that. I don't know anything about that.
That's a transcript of the interview by Jim Yarlborough (ph) and Billy Beck -- Belk (ph) and Brian McNamee -- December 12, 2007. Is that correct?
MCNAMEE: I'm not sure. What are you referring to? What am I saying I don't know anything about -- sir?
BURTON: Let me read to you -- well, let's pass on that because...
(CROSSTALK)
BURTON: Oh, this was a quote you told the investigators. We'll pass on that.
Mr. McNamee, I'm going to read you a series of statements attributed to you regarding your involvement with steroids. I don't have any dealings with steroids or amphetamines. I don't buy it, sell it, condone it, or recommend it. I don't make money from it. It's not part of my livelihood and not part of my business.
Did you say that?
MCNAMEE: Yes.
BURTON: That's a lie, right?
MCNAMEE: Partial.
BURTON: Partial?
MCNAMEE: A partial lie.
(LAUGHTER)
McNamee pleads guilty to knowing the ins and outs of steroids but says, I have no involvement as far as supplying it, getting it, selling it, telling them to use it. John Hayman, the sixth man (ph).
Clemens' trainer denies link to (inaudible).
Is that a lie?
MCNAMEE: Yes, sir.
BURTON: OK. You know, I'm not going to read any more of this. This is really disgusting.
You're here as a sworn witness. You're here to tell the truth. You're here under oath. And yet we have lie, after lie, after lie, after lie, where you've told this committee and the people of this country that Roger Clemens did things that -- I don't know what to believe.
I know one thing I don't believe, and that's you. The other thing I want to say is that -- and I want to say this about this whole investigation -- you know, Donovan, who was the secretary of labor, was accused of wrongdoing and went to trial.
And he was found innocent within about 20 minutes, and he came out and said, How do I get my reputation back?
You know, Roger Clemens, unless it's proven that he used steroids, and so far, I haven't seen anything like -- if he did, he ought to be held accountable -- but Roger Clemens is a baseball -- he's a titan in baseball.
And you, with all these lies, if they're not true, are destroying him and his reputation. Now, how does he get his reputation back if this is not true, and how can we believe you because you've lied and lied and lied?
And the thing I want to say is that we have this pension in the country of trial by media. I mean, I understand the media has a right to come to these things and to get all the information that they can, but until -- in this country, until a man is proven guilty, he's innocent.
And this kind of a hearing and this kind of a circus, as I call it, really bothers me. If he's done something wrong, he ought to be indicted, he ought to be prosecuted and he ought to be punished for it. But I don't see any evidence of that so far.
And with that, I'll stop.
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